Chefs and their knives

Before I start my argument I would to make it clear , I am going to talk about chefs and their knives ( cooks apply to this as well ) :not a regular guy /girl who puts white jackets and claims he /she is a chef but a person who received formal training , on Job training or both and does this for living . I have been cooking for living for 13 years as of now and for the last 8 years or so I have been into knives .( ok last year and bit I have been deeply into knives I must admit ) I have worked with literally 100s of chefs some of them in very very high end kitchens . Out of all the chefs I worked I can only count hand full of chefs with very good knife skills and only 2 or 3 knife nuts . I have literally taught so many of my chefs ( line cook , CDP ,sous chef ) how to use their knives properly . There is so little information from the school and very little emphasis about how to master their techniques or the importance of it . Most of the information is from here say and so on or what their chefs told them to do so .
Now with the social media and the chef pages all over it you will be thinking they will be getting better or more accurate information about them right ?? Wrong ... Sadly wrong ... Most of the pages on FB and IG became marketing tools and the articles have turned into infomercials and from the response they are getting I feel like us knifenuts we are not getting anywhere .
The local chefs association is giving German battle axes for prizes in their auction to raise money , when I mention I make knives at the table most of the time before I can explain good steel , heat treatment etc "some experienced chef's" are telling me how they would be superior than what I or a japanese bladesmith can make by saying "it's full tang "....
When I bring chefs in for trial shift , before they start working they take their honing rods out and start stroking their knives with them like a teenager on a M rated movie
The response I see when some chef pages post " new design knife with ergonomic handle " wow , looks great .... I can chop with it all day with my index finger on the spine and then can wash in the dishwasher , great idea...
Or another chef page featuring a hideous knife they have sponsored because it has jewels on ...
The road to the proper knives is not easy , we have to teach beginners about grinds , steels and more important that proper heat treatment makes them what you want rather than the ne and the hype ( did someone say super steel ??) , that hidden tang is stronger than matchsticks they make it sound to be , that carbon is not going to rust away if you bother to wipe , pull through sharpeners are made by evil and the guy that claims he sharpens knives on bench grinder is fair game in hunting season ( joking )
Here is my little rant for the day ...

 

I agree with you, although I will play devils advocate some. I have seen many cooks crank out amazing dishes with Mundials and Vics...cooking is not about being the most fanatical with knives. I have even seen cooks in third world countries prepare meals with paring knives that put many so called "chefs" (because CIA gave them a certificate) to shame. I think we over emphasize knives here because we enjoy them and the people that visit get the idea being a knife nut is a pre requisite for cooking good food. It is simply not the case.

 

I haven't said anything about being knife nut related to better cooking skills did I ? I fully agree that a knifnut with better tools doesn't make a better chef , on the other side you expect them to use their tools or at least understand them better . At least I do

 

To understand cell structure of proteins & vegetables is the path to the HIGHEST quality, best preparation of food possible. Unfortunately our culinary educators are motivated by the almighty $, more times than I care to count. Instead of having new students learn the "truth" about good knives, maybe as a part of the first block of curriculum, with instructions on where and how to procure and care for quality knives. Every culinary program out there mandates that all students buy their own (marginal) knives from our "bookstore" or "special vendor," etc., or the initial knife kit is part of the tuition. In all the aforementioned scenarios the motivation being: cheap "full tang" knives, "what is said company going to do for the program," "what do I (the buyer) get out of it," etc., etc., instead of "how can I educate our incoming students about the advantages of j-knives and customs." I believe that the path to changing this mentality is through a grass roots effort. JMHO. "You're only as good as the last dish you prepared!"

 

It's not he knife what makes the chef, but a good knife helps a lot.
Seen chefs working fast and efficient with just a pastry knife. And it's sufficient as long as you don't have to cut hard veg/fruit.
I prefer high carbon steel knives, but back in the days i haven't even heard of them and even if i had i wouldn't have been able to buy them.
So most of the time it's the lack of info / funds.
And the other thing is, in Europe the european brands are known, reasonably priced and being promoted. Getting a knife from overseas could be quite expensive even if it wouldn't be that bad by just converting the currency but the additional costs put most people off from buying.
Yeah, and one more thing what i find quite controversial is that the people who do cooking for living can not afford as nice/many knives as the ones who doesn't do cooking for a living.

 

Sorry to break in as a home cook here, but is it possible part of the issue is the cooking school instructors don't know enough about knives to warrant holding real classes on the subject? I'd be interested to hear if anyone has approached one of the schools with a developed curriculum to propose teaching such a class. Maybe that's the ticket to increasing awareness on how someone who develops into a good cook/ eventual chef can speed up their prep work, improve the food appearance, etc.

 

I only cooked professionally for a little over 3 years. In that time, the majority of people I cooked alongside, chefs included, did indeed have poor overall knife skills. I worked with only a couple of guys in western kitchens who knew what they were doing.
I spent 6 months in a japanese kitchen and all those guys were off the chain with knife skills, sharpening and general knife care and etiquette
Ruined me for western kitchens.
Cheers
Matteo

 

I must admit that I didn't know squat about knives until I started hanging out on these forums a few years ago. Kinda embarrassing for a guy whose been a chef for over thirty years.

 

Very insightful topic Mert!! As a custom bladesmith it holds a lot of importance to my level of success.

I have zero, literally zero knife skills in a kitchen...beyond not cutting myself (much anyway...I'm getting better. 20lbs of tomatoes yesterday ended with only one super glued digit). That said, I actually considered taking the entire culinary course at a local vocational college (Art Institute) to help me improve my work. When I went in, I brought a couple of my current (at the time) gyuto with me to show off a little . Anyhow, when my interviewer/guide introduced me to the director he asked to see my work. I showed him. The first thing he commented on was the lack of a full tang. He then tested the edge with his thumb (which removed skin btw), said 'Sharp!!'...then reached into his drawer and grabbed one of those cheap, stainless looking ridged steels saying 'How does it handle honing?' as he lifted the knife in preparation to run it down the thing. I actually grabbed the guy's hand!! At that point I told myself 'the hell with it'...said 'I don't know, let me see?', took the thing from the guy and ran the edge of the knife I still had in my hand down it at a bit of an oblique angle. The guy's eyes were HUGE when slivers of the ridges ran off the steel lol. He genuinely had no concept of what a properly heat treated Japanese style knife was even close to capable of. I knew at that point that there was zero benefit to me taking the course...and the rest of the interview just confirmed it. My main focus was greater knife skills and an improved understanding of how my knives could be better used to prepare great dishes (which I think ties in directly with Mert's topic). There was nothing in the curriculum that even came close to that.

 

My advice to anyone interested in superior knife skills is to go work at the best Japanese restaurant you can find. Some place really high end that does Kaiseki would be ideal. You will work longer days than you ever have and it will suck in a lot of ways and it might even be months before you even feel like you're preparing food but it's worth it.

 

How many chefs have months to do that ?and what about the cost side of it ? By the time I realised I wanted to get into knives and better knife skills I was a sous chef at a restaurant , I wouldn't leave what I did to start at the bottom of a different cuisine that I have no experience of .

 

I think the whole point is that in a japanese restaurant you use your knife 90% of the day. and in a western kitchen you basically just use it to prep and slice cooked proteins every once in a while. I used a spoon more than my knife when I worked in a western kitchen.

I've been waiting for the kitchen spoon forum to come out but it seems like nobody gives a damn......

 

Great topic Mert this is a very big issue for me. I have never worked with anyone who knew Anything about knives. I knew very little about knives for the first 6 of 10 years of my career embarrassingly. I had to learn everything online from these forums there is zero information here in AU. I have taught my apprentices about knives and have raised a few knife nuts lately and when they go to tafe (trade school ) I have to tell them not to bother trying to talk knives with anyone. Not even the teachers. They all know nothing! There is not one class on knife skills. I'm serious out of the 3 blocks of school they do there is not ONE single unit about knife skills. The teachers don't correct bad skills as most don't know better.

As far as I'm aware keithsaltydog teaches knife skills in Hawaii at cooking school and is doing a good job. Also scotchef here in AU is a tafe teacher up in cairns I think. Perhaps he can chime in. But here in brisbane knife skills is not something anyone teaches much About. Even in the fanciest couple of restaurants in town with celebrity chefs at the helm I don't recall anyone with much more than a beat up global shun or wustof.

It's not the cooks/ chefs fault... It's just not taught whatsoever! This needs to change.

 

Great thread Mert! In my visitations to various kitchens here in Houston, chefs use crap for the most part. Occasional Glestain or Tojiro and maybe a Blazen they got as a graduation present from culinary school. I have even encountered the "Yaxell" from eBay Shun knock-off. I hand them a properly designed knife of mine and their eyes light up. Then, unfortunately they are doing the math in their heads to buy one and all they are earning is $1000 per week before taxes and deductions. That Yaxell is looking more viable now.

And Jacques Pepin used a paring knife for most of his cooking throughout his career.

I have taken a couple of cooking classes and the chef spent most of the time stroking the knife on the steel like a symphony conductor. Destroying the edge and impressing everyone around them with their knife "skills" (but it was fingers on a blackboard to me).

 

1000 a week? where is this at?

 

Can we keep it more on topic please ? You have your subforum to praise and market your work

 

I'm guessing...

Could be wrong though.

 

Easy brother Mert! I don't think he meant it to come across that way. I had to be very careful how I worded my comment to avoid coming off that way as well. I think his point was they said 'Wow! Nice knife!' (which could apply to any of the knives from Japan as well...not just high end customs), then reality set in and they realized that they were looking at a month's rent and went back to their Wüsthofs and Shuns.

 

Mert, is there a bitter tone to your post or just plain observation
From what I observed, it is not about the money at all. Neither about the brand.

Recently, I was back at the catering kitchen [business I left two years ago] for two days just to prep a buffet type party for a group of tvelwe, umph, lets call them vips.
At one point, the head chef there, good cook working previously in really respected and known establishments, tells me:

"You are kind of a legend in this company, are you not?! Always with a sharp knife"
And I just laughed at him and answered: "Really? Because my knife is sharp and I came to work motivated??". And thought to myself he really talks out his arse.

That came from a guy that bought this 800 bucks Takamura R2 27cm slicer but cannot sharpen it

My point is:
There is 5 youngsters working in there. Whatever you ask them, all they know is that they wish to be managing. Might be a pile of doo-doo, but to be a manager of it, thats the goal. The sign of times I guess.

Mert, do you actually expect older guys, or yourself, to crawl behind these crapbags and beg to sharpen? Or to be interested? Or to stay afterhours?

And one more thing:
Hands up cooks that factually learned anything at the culinary school. One things for sure, you won't see mine up in the air.
But I would not blame the college for it. I would not blame aprentices mentor for that.
Id say the only person you can blame for not having enough info and skills, is yourself. I dont buy into that "Noone showed me any better" philosophy. If one wants to get better, one must put effort into it.

Why? Because in the era of people wasting their time just to post about every unimportant aspect of their unimportant lives on the dumbbook, there is an easy way to find infos about: "How to do virtually anything better than before". 2 minutes on the youtube and you can get the basics right. The rest is practice and enjoy BUT who learns about enjoying the cutting being a cook means producing food not just run around like a lunatic in a fancy jacket like I care what is the cooks name or the brand of sauces he is paid to advertise.

 

Ahhhhhh.......... THE AGE OF ENTITLEMENT!!! ave 2