Chefs and their knives

Hiya guys, weird that this topic is being discussed here because I just finished a semester long project on the very subject.
I'm currently in culinary school, and one of the things I noticed right off the bat was that there is little to no knife skills training going on. The way it's set up at my school is that knife skills are sort of integrated into the general curriculum. Students are taught how to julienne, macedoine, brunoise, and chateau ect but it's only for about 5-10 min at the beginning of most days students attend labs (if time allows). We are also graded on our knife cuts during our "practical" exams, in which we have (depending on the class) 1-4 hours to produce 4 or 5 different kinds of knife cuts, and prepare a dish for our chef instructor. It's sort of ironic that they call them "practical" exams when really there's nothing practical about them. All of my knife cuts would be absolutely perfect if I had 3 hours to tediously julienne a potato. Anywho, my project focused around the idea that part of the identity of a chef is superior knife skills, and his or her relationship with cutlery. I took issue with the fact that none of my professors deemed it important enough to teach students proper knife skills; enforcing good habits and correcting bad ones. From my limited experience and understanding, I have come to the conclusion that chefs who take pride in their knife skills and prep work often take more pride in the final product, whatever that might be. So the first thing I thought to do to research my topic was to interview students about where they stood on the issue. I was careful not to lead students to any particular conclusion when asking them questions i.e. Do you feel comfortable with your understanding of kitchen cutlery? Do you know how to sharpen your own knife? ect. The results were as follows. 80% of students interviewed stated that they were uncomfortable with their current knife skills and knowledge of kitchen cutlery (and equipment! like friers, flat-top, grill ect.). 50% volunteered the information that they were not working in professional kitchens because they were uncomfortable with their knife skills and knowledge of cutlery and kitchen equipment. Instead they are working at Chipotle or Starbucks and the like. 30% said they knew how to sharpen their knives, but didn't feel comfortable using the grinder provided at school as they didn't want to mess their knives up. None of the 25 culinary students I interviewed knew what a waterstone was, and right around 50% said they were taking their knives to Bass pro to get them sharpened. So....I found this troubling. Mostly because by virtue of attending a culinary institute, students should be taught how to use their tools! From my perspective not only does it foster pride, but also an identity as "Chef". Knowing your tools, and cultivating a relationship with your cutlery is essential to preparing food you care about. Just like students are taught to care about their uniforms and fingernails, they should also be taught to care about their tools. Anyways.......kinda got rambling there but yeah, I can't tell you how many times between the professional setting and school I see cooks and Chef's alike limping along with dull knives, and instructors seeing them struggle without helping. I guess in a way it's not even about the brand or quality of the knife, it's more about whether or not you take the time to clean it and sharpen it when it needs it. It's more about understanding each and every characteristic of the cutlery you use on a daily basis in order to elevate your craft.....was the point I was trying to make. Idk. I'm tired and it's 3 in the morning. No more rambling good night!

 

Thank you very much for this write up, it sums up my thoughts on lack of emphasis on tools of trade from culinary schools

 

Well said coexist44! I see the need for this to be written up in a good food-related periodical! Seriously!

 

And what about the ACF? Where do they stand on the subject? Should they not be of the same mind of us "knife nuts"?

 

I was in the middle to of acf certifications , at exercises they were saying that participants have to do some kind of crappy salad I can't bother remembering it and it had to have height . It sounded like my German chef with white tall hat . I said to myself " want am I doing here ?" They are really way behind the real food scene , biggest achievement is leaving CIA out of the certification game . I don't see them doing anything other than sticking to their soft steel German knives .
My interest in japanese knives started because of me not being satisfied with my German knife back then , I wanted a better edge that retains it self and didn't had that stupid bolster . I thought it could be better than this , it should be , started researching . At the end I think some people are happy once they get used to things and don't want to change any of it ,some are questioning if there is a better way of doing it

 

This has been an interesting one to follow. I went to a small privately owned culinary school, yes we were given the standard Mercer kit but we spent days just learning and practicing basic cuts. Admittedly we spent an hour a day on lecture and the following 8 hours in the kitchen until we moved into the advanced portion where it was 45 min or so of menu planning for the student run restaurant then into the kitchen to start mis for service. Not your typical school. As for my Chef instructors the first I have the utmost respect for as he has a resume the included some landmarks in Europe as well as his own successful restaurant locally. He opted to teach rather than retire. May times Chef would look at your juliennne and tell you its too big and to start over.... All the time trying to correct bad habits. Yes he is an old frech guy and started the day stroking his 270mm along the steel but there was also lots of talk regarding the reason for this and the long term effects of doing it as well as the fact there are better options out there than our assigned kit. Another one of our instructors Chef katsu covered lecture of Japanese water stones some of his personal knives (impressive collection) and the difference in steels used. In all this rambling I suppose it's fair to say not all schools are created equal. Yes Mert there needs to be more emphasis on this area in our industry I try and encourage it in my kitchen even with my executive chef and his best up old wushty. Which I shrapend for him once and opened his eyes to a part of things he had neglected for a large part of his career.

 

If you convert the teachers, they sneak their enthusiasm into the system even if the curriculum makes no room for it.

Unfortunately there's so much posturing and marketing, and we're pushing confidence confidence confidence over all other characteristics, so perhaps egos have become too dense to penetrate with curiosity and enthusiasm for learning. I'd also bet that most people who claim to care aren't actually doing anything about it, or have dismissed it as futile after a few bad exchanges.

I am almost completely disconnected from that system and am not especially affected by whether cooking schools in this or that country teach knife skills. If you are in the game, start finding people who should know better, and ask them why they teach what you don't like, or why they don't seem to care about what you care about.

 

All this being said: what about the A-holes that drive newbies away from these forums with their snobbery remarks and "what are you an idiot" innuendos? I was just on another forum, in the sharpening sub forum, and the new individual had some very good/pertinent questions only to be blasted by a long standing member, who is not a chef, to the point that I would not be surprised, if the new individual ever came to any of the forums again. And this guy is one of the "good old boys" on said forum. Nothing infuriates me more than having people ask for help, only to be ridiculed and insulted when asking topic specific questions. IS IT NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP EDUCATE THOSE PEOPLE ABOUT THE BENEFITS OF J-KNIVES & CUSTOMS!!! I can't stand arrogant snobs. Ok rant over.

 

everyone I work with is always like WOW you have some really cool knives, but I really had pompous people who think their you know what doesn't stink and talk so demeaning towards you. I never do that and want to educate the ones who are less fortunate when it comes to J-Knives and all they know is about SHUN and Global or whatever and think those are the best, because it is all they know

 

Sorry Mert, didn't mean to jack your thread, just thought it was relative.

Amen, Coqavin, we should all take a helpful approach! :cool1

 

This is a great thread with some great posts. Here are some other concerns....the world of kitchen cutlery is very subjective, who is to say which is best and who will be responsible for the final say of how a course will be taught. My taste will be very different than others (hate flat profiles and white steel...). In addition, I get my knives screaming sharp, so does the OP, but I guarantee out path to getting there is different and subjective. The subjectivity of the world of cutlery is what makes it impossible to teach as part of a mandatory curriculum.

Not to mention, if a person has not leared how to care for tools by the time they are 17 or 18, it is likely not going to happen. I doubt any class taught at a culinary school will change that. Habits are set and are difficult to break once a person gets into adulthood.

 

Matt I agree with knives being very subjective , profile , height , blade material , handle material etc all. And unfortunately most of chef who just started cooking can't afford custom or high end japanese knives . A good knife doesn't have to be paycheck worth . A tojiro dp is more than enough to last many years .
On the subject of maintenance : having carbon knives made me have 2 rags near my cutting board. A wet one to wipe on my right and a dry one on my left side to wipe dry . My habit of wiping knife lead also to keep wiping my cutting board repeatedly . I know my tools and board will be always clean , I have taught this to myself around 27-28 old . Most of the apprentices and chefs I have seen may wipe their boards but they don't bother wiping their knives . Because it's stainless they can leave it wet , they can leave it dirty and it tolerates this laziness .
A former sous chef of mine who wanted to buy a knife and I had refused to sell him : because at the end of the shift he would leave his knives in the ice cream container filled with water . And most of the apprentices ( not the ones I gave the knife bug would leave their dirty knives in the kitchen sink or just on the bench and go home .
I guess if you did that and had to spend 20 minutes next day to be able to make your tool useable again by removing rust and etc it would have been different

 

I think there would be ways around the subjectiveness. Have chefs knives/ gyutos in German, classic French and Japanese profiles, and go over the differences in cutting motions for each profile, then let the students try each. Go over care and sharpening of softer and harder steels. Let them experience for themselves differences in edge retention between different hardness knives, and the differences in profile/ geometry between a Wusthoff, a stamped food-service knife, some vintage Sabs and some inexpensive Japanese knives. Let them see/ explore the universe of knives and individually see which type of profile and hardness works best for them. The tough thing here though is the school would need to provide knives for this. Get past that hurdle and the execution would be easier (i.e., assign each person a specific knife to use for the next x days, etc.).

 

I love this outlook. It's insightful, proactive and requires personal accountability. I know if I was a possible culinary school candidate, much like @coexist44, I'd be speaking up and making others aware of what I'd learned outside of school. Hell, if I had better knife skills as far as food prep goes, I'd consider teaching a block on knives at one of the local schools.

And this is exactly what I'd be teaching. A block focusing on JUST the tools of the trade, with relatively inexpensive options from each of the different styles...would be head and shoulders above what I believe most schools offer now. The problem would be finding someone to teach it. Very few chefs that I've personally met (referencing my search I posted above), have a clue about knives...and not one of the schools I've seen locally do either. A bladesmith friend of mine's daughter went to culinary school in Tucson on a full scholarship, and she works as a secretary now. She said they didn't teach her ANYTHING she needed to know, much less anything about knives.

Funny thing, my own daughter took an Intro to Culinary class her sophomore year of high school, and the teacher actually asked me to come in and show some of my work. I couldn't make it but I sent some of my knives in with my daughter. They had an entire 2wk lesson on just knives (which from what I'm gathering, is more than most culinary colleges!), that included types of knives (chef's, paring, bread, etc), and hand forging oddly enough...the students were required to do a powerpoint presentation on them. She also says they were taught about 'whetstones' (and even recommended water as the lubricant), and hones. In addition they were required to do a powerpoint on ways to hold the knife. They were taught the basic cuts and the resulting names of the product made, food safety (she got her food handler's card), and learned 'to cook a lot of yummy food' (yes that's a quote). My daughter said it drove her nuts because the teacher would constantly ask her if the information being taught in regards to the knives was correct, or for her to 'back up' many of her statements...and my daughter knows nothing of my work lol.

I'll see if I can dig up her presentations and figure out a way to post some of it up. It might be interesting to share here.

 

Education, education, education....... FYI, I have offered, free of charge, to do a class on cutlery at a couple of the local culinary schools, in the last couple of years, and have not gotten any response whatsoever. To qualify, I was a substitute teacher at both institutions, in the past.

I guess, at this point in time, that self education is the only answer.

Incidentally, David, I agree with you wholeheartedly!!! :cool1

 

It's good to see some culinary schools teach the students their tools of trade . We have many chefs and home cooks here on this forum , please post your experience about how you get into higher end knives ? I know us knife nuts are out numbered but as someone into the knives for a bit I see the availability and popularity of high end knives is increasing lot even over the few years . We see more articles about artisan makers in media , more footage in TV ( Kramers appearance on top chef , forged in fire etc ) I think we will see the change of views over few years how people and chefs view their knives and what to expect from them .

 

It's awesome to hear that there are culinary schools out there taking the time to enforce good knife skills. Extremely encouraging .
@chefcomesback I got into higher end knives because the stock beaters we were using in the first kitchen i worked in were so terrible...the people who sharpened them didn't do a very good job. I lopped off the end of my fingers three separate times due to the knives slipping off of onions or potatoes, and I had to use dangerous pressure to chop through heavy root vegetables like squash, carrots, and potatoes. I figured the solution was to buy my own knives and learn to sharpen them so I always had safe, sharp tools to use. Not to mention hand cramps! Using that much pressure when prepping banquets for 500 people was giving me some serious wrist problems....at age 20. Long story short I bought a tojiro DP off of Mark at CKTG and haven't looked back since . At some point today ill post a picture of the knives available at my new-ish work place....and you'll see why I'm happy I decided to procure my own .

 

I have been speaking to my Exec about getting rid of all "house" knives. This may be the only way to get real change in some kitchens.

 

A country club I was at had did not have any house knives. Lots of Shuns and Victornox. Lots of neglected stainless... People were more mindful of their knives but a pull through sharpener was the best... I made a lot of money on tip repairs.

 

I just graduated in a culinary school here in Italy. I'm not an expert, of course, but I can say that the teachers and kitchen assistants don't know anything at all about knives. I taught them how to use a steel the proper way... I mean, really?! They tried to say that I was wrong, so I grabbed my culinary book and showed them that the way I use is correct. They don't even look at the books they make us students buy! Unbelievable. Telling them what was the difference between a traditional Japanese knife and a regular German stainless steel knife was hard, believe me. In my opinion, they don't even care what knife they are using as long as they can do the work. I didn't work in many kitchens, but those where I worked had very skilled chefs and also starred chefs. What I noticed is that they aren't really obsessed with knifes as I am, (made exception for just a few). Also, they don't even consider sharpening on whetstones. They simply use those evil electric sharpening machines or a sharpening steel. That's why I started a campaign to teach all about a chef needs to know about their knives in the schools here where I live.