negative feedback

This is an interesting read for sure, My two cents...
Sharing information is why we are here is it not? Lucretia these are some great points and your little irritations as you put them could be larger issues for some, A new member may not have the knowledge of equipment to thin a knife properly so your honest opinion shared respectfully and publicly that you needed to thin a knife to maximize it may have helped both parties here. The maker has some good info from an experienced user and the newbie searching for a knife can take this into consideration and even talk to the maker about your experience when ordering. But (and there is always a but) is how much stock do you put in someones opinion, well that is where we as a community come in and ask for detail or reasoning and investigate as best we can, compare experience, openly discuss good and maybe not bad but opportunities we see for improvement. I think we respect the people who make our knives enough to afford them the opportunity to correct any issues prior to posting about them. But those are issues with a product not what we think would improve it.
Anton mentioned sharing a review on a custom that he doesn't like, if it was made well to his specs say so before saying that it doesn't perform well. I would read that as a job well done by a maker and inquire how he would improve the product. The the maker could possibly engage in the conversation and share their thought's on someones custom requests.
All in all some fine lines to tread carefully around but as a group of adults who share a passion I think we should discuss all aspects of our knives.

P.S. Anton after a fair bit of use the handle I have of yours is performing great! Would I share any other thoughts about opportunities to improve it Indeed i would.

 

Such a difficult topic.

First - as Lucretia and others have said so eloquently - feedback, whether positive or negative, should first be communicated to the craftsman/vendor. So often, when a transaction is satisfying, no one says a thing, but when something is wrong, rather than take it up with the specific vendor, people take to public forums. The faceless keyboard affords far too much bravado....I know with certainty people are more comfortable typing anonymous damning words on a forum than they are with making a phone call to complain directly to a vendor. Note I said phone call. It's simply not an excuse to say you sent a few e-mails without response and then complain.

Second - we should recognize there are different styles of interaction that are considered normal. There are vendors here who communicate often and deliver exactly on time - they can't imagine running their business otherwise. And then there are vendors who don't surface again for 18 months after placing an order - but they are equally popular and we keep ordering - so to them that style is perfectly normal as well.

Third - Communication is key. These very forums, and the online presence of many vendors gives everyone the feeling that communication and answers should always be instant, and that we all speak a common language. Yet, again, we are all coming from vastly different places. In your world, you might spend 12 hours a day at a desk behind a keyboard. You might be aggravated by an e-mail that goes 15 minutes unanswered. But to many, that's a foreign concept

Finally - if we subjected everyone to a public vetting, we might win the battle but lose the war. Look at Stefan's comments a few posts above. I can say from first hand experience his work is sublime - anyone with one of his handles knows this. If he were to stop making handles, we all lose. As he pointed out - many vendors don't do this full time - and public rants that could have been handled privately might be the tipping point for them to close shop.

 

You should meet my in-laws.


Another perspective,

I don't want a knife maker to be driven by forum hype. I want a knife maker to make the knife that they believe in and feel is the best knife they can make. Compromising to the whims of the most vocal is a sure route to mediocrity. I like the work that is unique and driven by a personal opinion on what makes a great kitchen knife. To be honest I don't think a professional knife maker should need me to tell them how to make a knife. I like the ones that show me how a great kitchen knife can be made.

Sometimes (often really) an exceptional knife just doesn't fit my personal cutting style. I wouldn't want a talented maker to change what they do because of that.

 

i now i have been bad about keeping up but i had my comp in the shop 2 weeks . hoping to be much better abot keeping up wit orders now that i am back at full power

 

What a great read! Interesting, valid points made by all. To me, sounds like communication (or the lack there of) is the culprit. With better/open lines of cummincation and honesty between the parties involved, you should be able to eliminate most issues.

 

Great topic that has sparked a good debate. There are many aspects of civility that come with being a forum member. I believe we should emphasize the positive and when needed pass along information that might be helpful for future improvement. Like already mentioned by all, the buyer should take up shortcomings with the vendor as a 1st course of action. I have personally found that there seems to be a problem with some vendors making promises for completion and not following through. I do honestly believe that part of the problem is that so many vendors are in such high demand that the list of people is much larger than the vendor can handle at any given time. This is a testament to the high quality demand for these knives! I think many vendors go ahead and accept work because they don't want to let down the customer by saying they have all the work they can handle for a while. This is when things can get out of control.

COMMUNICATION is paramount with the customer / vendor relationship. I'm currently awaiting knives that have been paid for, for quite awhile and aren't even custom. After multiple emails, I have an understanding of what happened but still no real sense of when I might get the knives. I just received a knife this week that I purchase over 1 year ago and saw the picture of the knife posted on the forum after completion. I had to email the vendor many times over the past year as to why after a year of completion that I still didn't have the knife. Full disclosure -- he said the handle had a problem and had to be remade. OK I get that, but a year to finish a handle (this was not a custom either) with no communication as to what has happened.

As a chef / manager, I insist that the front of the house staff communicate with the customer when and if there is ever a problem with their meal. I've seen all too often someone drop a plate on the way to be served, or the line ruin the plate by over cooking, etc. At this point the kitchen is furiously trying to remake this cover. Servers are nervous and want to get this out as soon as possible but hesitate to tell the customer in fear that they will be mad. They realize that it is being remade and that they have the customer in mind, but if they don't tell the customer that there was a problem, the customer will think "where in the hell is my meal, they obviously don't even know we are here"! It's always best policy to let the customer know what is happening. They aren't going to be thrilled, but they will be much less irritated knowing that they haven't been forgotten and there is a solution in progress.

By the way, the knife I just received after a year is awesome. Beautiful work in all aspects and cuts great. I've let the vendor know as well.

 

I remember there was a thread about that on the other KKF.
Maybe its too deeply burned into my empty head, but in my service oriented industry, saying a customer should keep his thoughts to himself is a sure blasphemy.

What about poor cooks in a dirty restaurant nearby? Would you keep quiet, eat the stooge they serve and happily pay just so they can keep cooking same stuff?? Come on people, not in my face. Please...So you sit in the cheap terrible restaurant, and your old stinky lobster takes an hour to arrive, but you dont know about it beforehand cause the unprofessional waiting staff is far away of being attentive... Yet you eat, pay and get sick back at home??
Or you sit in a very high end restaurant, food is great but its too little too late. Would you not mention about that in your review afterwards?
Whats the point of reviewing then?

My point of view? I tried giving some constructive criticism once, some of you might remember that. I said what I thought about one ITK. 500 dollar blade.
Blade thin and with bad grind, balance terrible [you know this feeling when you are worried how light the knife is, and if the tip is still there - absolutely not feeling well in hand]. When I say bad grind - I say it would literally stop halfway through carrot. Plastic feeling through onion. Tips side 5 cm could be bent 60 degrees.
How can those things be personal against a maker? So its my fault now that it landed in myhands??

The answer I get from other members : What you expect you i*i*t? Its an ITK!!
[you cant read numbers? five hundred United States Dollars]

And I dont buy into that livelihood thingy. Catchy phrase, but either its a hobby, for which you occasionally take a little money, or its your profession and you take the serious money, and you are a serious person.

Because of that philosophy I bang 36 hour shifts at my work which in neither labour of love or passion to me! But I agreed to get paid in return, and the job must get done.

 

Brother bieniek is in the house!

 

Yeah I was also comparing this to the restaurant industry. If we so much as put one foot out of line at work we get pulled to pieces on online reviews. Most of the time there's a reason though, severely understaffed or sick etc. I'll bet if the customers understood the situation they wouldn't write the review....
That's why I think we should communicate with the maker first and tell them our problems. This gives them the fair chance they deserve to rectify or explain the situation. If the maker fails to communicate effectively about the situation or we aren't happy with there response we should write about it! Negative feedback shouldn't be frowned upon we need it to make well informed decisions!
I sure wish people weren't holding their tongues.

 

In a situation like that, you may have not liked the profile but in someone else's hands they may have loved it. Personal preferences play a very big part with knives. Definitely no fault of the maker.

Not direct at you Anton, just some thoughts --> Criticizing something you don't like could keep someone else from getting something they may love. A knife you hate I may love. A discussion of something that doesn't work for you, if properly handled, could be informative and help some make a more informed decision.

I'm not keen on the term criticizing, that usually leans toward attacking. Critiquing I think is what we're looking for and can be informative.
To me critiquing, not criticizing, the service and buying experiences is as important as the product itself too.

 

Wouldn't we need to be careful with praise too? Seems a knife that makes me happy might not satisfy you and I don't want to promote a product unwittingly to someone who won't appreciate it.

A big problem is that this community is already entrenched in a culture of veneration, confirmation bias, and purchase justification. There is very little to counterbalance or temper that in an honest way.

 

This right here is a huge problem in every genre of knives. From kitchen knives to tactical.

 

I'd say that's it's common among the people to develop some stereotypes in almost every field of knowledge. Those stereotypes are developed for a good purpose — they save a lot of time on each consecutive decision. For example, if you once decide that you like apples more than oranges, then you don't have to waste hours every time you went to some food market. So each of us has some preferences and together we form something that's called community. But what once was someone's personal preference became a part of community stereotype. A person can change preferences rather easily, but the stereotype of the whole community is much harder to change, since it forms from preferences of many people.

I wouldn't really call it a problem if the majority of community members agrees on exchanging their preferences in full (not just the positive part).

 

Another interesting thread I missed!

I'm in the same boat he was in lol. After the first reply when the knife arrives...I generally get very little feedback as to the performance. A couple customers have been REALLY great about it...and some have even given me very helpful feedback as to small issues that caught their attention which then allowed me to add steps to my methods so they don't happen again. Mostly though, it's a few great messages back and forth and then radio silence lol. As a maker, I don't know if no news is good news, or no news is the customer just being polite about small issues, or even large issues like you mentioned (if one of my knives has a chipped edge or is truly wedging, I freakin wanna know...like, ASAP).

Yes, this is a really big hint to all of you with my knives to immediately PM me .

I love this Chuckles, seriously. I personally like to get a feel for what the customer is wanting and 'likes'...then apply my methods and knowledge into making the best version of that 'type' I can. You like heavy knives? My 'custom' for you will be a bit heavier than what I might make otherwise. You like taller knives? Again...it's nothing to add 5mm to the heel height. It will still be my knife, with my preference in geometry and my 'feel'...but it'll be closer to something that would make you happy than if I just sent you something that fits my preferences and cutting style.

I like to think this is successful every time, but honestly...I don't know because as I said, I don't get much feedback lol.

As for the time thing...I'm behind myself. I think Ian is partially right in that in some ways it's a business management thing (I'm still trying to generate an effective/efficient way to go about all of this, both in regards to steps in the shop, and integrating it all into my life). But it's also the fact that I'm a single dad with 24/7 custody of my kids, and have about a billion obligations in regards to that that I have to put first. It's making for some weirdly stressful situations that I never expected, but that I'm also working through consistently.

In the end, I guess there's a lot to this topic, and probably as many variations on what the 'right' path would be as there are makers and customers. I think feedback would be nice, and I don't mind public feedback as I try my very best to make every knife better than the last. Negative feedback in public could be beneficial, but could also be a really detrimental to new makers who are trying to establish themselves. I guess I have no firm opinion on that aspect of the topic, and would take it as it came.

 

I know when I'm looking for a new item (knives, pens anything really) I try to seek out the negative feedback, which always more difficult to find as so few write about it. I think in fine cases people are afraid to go against the grain of a lot of positive posts have been made, or are ashamed to admit they spent money one a lame duck and just stay quiet about it

 

Often, I look for members who have posted that they own something but haven't sung its praises, and then PM them to see if there's anything to it. More often than not, people are willing to share what they don't like privately but follow a "don't want to hurt anyone's reputation" policy on the open boards.

Same goes for makers being unreliable, dishonest, incompetent, or capricious. There's a fair bit of negativity lurking under the surface though everyone in public says it's no big deal or it's understandable. If some of that negativity squeaks out, there'll be apologetic excuses and mollycoddling sycophantic replies to discourage criticism and maintain the status quo.

 

I've always felt there is an unwritten rule about posting any negative feedback about a forum vendoriy brings out the masses. Bieniek and a few others experiences have kind of demonstrated that. It makes it a cultural phenomenon. I myself have one vendor I would really like to rant about but know it wouldn't be taken well no matter how civil. And others I'd sing praises of to deaf ears. <shrug> It is what it is.

 

Posting negative feedback is quite different from constructive criticism.

CC starts with the phrase " In my opinion". And then stating issues particular to the individual.

Negative feedback is a whole different animal. And usually has a host of elements tied to it.
Poor communication, sloppy work, etc...
Plus failure of the knifemaker as well as the knife.

Both have their place. And both are valid.
It's how they're presented that causes problems.

 

Well said.

 

In the spirit of negative feed back, you last handle was so shiny, it hurt my eyes. Just sayin'