what is really needed.

Been using an Edge Pro Clone for a while now. Wanting to try my hand at stones.

The thing is, I see guys taking their edges to real high number finishes with some serious high dollar stones.

I have been using some diamond stones in the clone, but the original stone set, which tops out at a claimed 1500 seems to work fine. I think they can be replaced for about $8. I can raise an edge to the hair popping, paper slicing level without too much difficulty. Sharpened all my old knives and both my daughters knives before getting on with my goodish knives. Seems that the initial sharpening where you establish the bevel eats up the coarser stones but the finer ones still look gook. I can even do that trick with the grape on the cutting board where you slice off super thin layers without moving the half grape.

So what I'm getting at, is do I need to raise edge up beyond 1500? If so why? And do I need to acquire high dollar stones to do it. Of course I'm a home user, so not as hard on a knife as the pro's I'm sure. That said the Three japanese knives I have hold their edges very well. They are a pleasure to use.

I was thinking I needed 3 maybe 4 stones to take a knife through the bevel establishment to final sharpening. I know I probably speak blasphemy. Fellow KKFers, bring me to the light.

 

After a JIS1500 you may want a 3k, and for some steels, a 6-8k, but that is just to remove the last burr, or for maintenance. With double-bevelled kitchen knives you don' t look for a very polished edge.

 

I had 10 man made stones. Ive been there, done that. Unfortunately.
I sold them as a package and lost 50 percent on the sale.

Then I thought that because it looks so cool, I also need some jnats. How wrong was I?
Some hundreds of dollars away from whats really needed.
So long you dont plan to polish wide bevels to a crazy hazing, you are set with two stones. One medium grit about a thousand and a something finer. And a strop. How fine? I think it all depends on what medium grit you choose.
I found JNS 1K to work superbly well with white binsui from the same vendor, but this setup only works for my own knives. Meaning knives looked after.

If you get some heavily used knives with wide sharpening intervals, or never sharpened, I would recommend something coarser too. Just extends the lifespan of the stones and process shorter

 

for daily use , 1K , 3K , takashima (or takashima, depending on my mood. ) is my best combo .

 

Most of us, being of similar mind (what other nuts would belong to a kitchen knife forum?) go overboard. Honestly, a couple of relatively inexpensive stones will get you 95% of where you want to be. The "Martell Core Set of Stones"" which he sells for about $140 would more or less have you set with some great stuff. Honestly, unless you are doing major repair or re-bevel, you can ditch the 500 grit stone too. The other two stones in that set are what I use almost exclusively.

I was once of the opinion that "the more polished the better", and would spend a huge amount of time going from stone to stone, stropping, etc. At this point, I have decided that most of that is a waste of time for the knives I use most often, and even a 1k edge plus some stropping is just fine. Net net, get a good 1k stone, and maybe a 5k and you are fine. I really like the feel of that Suehiro Rika 5k stone if you decide to go that way...

 

I got by fine with one of these King 2 sided stones for a LONG long time.

http://korin.com/King-Two-sided-Sharpening-Stone-with-Base-1000-6000-Grit?sc=27&category=280108

 

Here's another look at your situation: you already have Edge Pro that gives you great edges. So what problem you are trying to solve by moving to freehand sharpening? I guess you are trying to overcome the problem that your Edge Pro will create over time: excess thickness behind the edge. So the more often you sharpen your knives with Edge Pro — the thicker they will be behind the edge. So let's assume you want to fix that. In that case you'll need something rather coarse that will quickly knock off thick shoulders. How much coarse? That's up to you, as the coarser you'll go — the quicker you could finish the job, but the deeper scratches you'll leave on your knife. After knocking of thick shoulders you could continue using Edge Pro for sharpening. So that means you could get away with just one stone for thinning and your Edge Pro for actual sharpening.

 

You could just choose a quality 1000 grit stone to start with, use varied pressure and then strop with some kind of compound, I like starkie blue or chromium oxide, for a bur free toothish edge that will still pop hairs.
Chosera 1000 would be a good choice, as its a high polish for a 1000, yet has good cut on all steels I have used.
I think its the best way to learn free hand actually, getting the most from one stone with varied pressure, and actually day to day you don't need anything else, other than a diamond plate to keep it flat then add a 400 grit for maintenance when necessary, when you are getting great edges off the 1000 and strop you can appreciate a higher grit stone.

For your interest, this is my routine on a new knife never sharpened.
Chosera 1000, strop and check the edge through feel, inspection, then thin paper, looking for dead spots or bur. When the edge has passed this stage, I move to either Chosera 6k or Takashima natural then strop once more.

For a real quick refresh once a knife is in regular use I often just go to 1k with light pressure and strop. Its just a perfect toothy edge for many tasks.

 

Thanks everyone for your help. Anton, I had not considered the immanent thickening behind the edge, but now that you mention it, it does make sense. As to problems. I don't know that it is the result of using the edge pro, but the tips require a real light touch to keep them from moving up. I feel if I can get the hang of free hand sharpening, I can pay better attention to this area. Maybe not. All that said, the desire to move to free hand is not really to address a problem, but to satisfy a curiosity and hopefully gain a sense of accomplishment. I want to see if I have what it takes.

Much food for thought. All opinions are welcomed. Thanks again.

Mike

 

Curious what you did with this? Nothing cuts worse than a chubby knife.

In addition to Anton's point about thickness I would also raise the issue of the degree of asymmetry you are likely losing that will eventually cause your knife to steer.

I'm not an edge pro user (free hand) but have heard reports/concerns about making sure that the edge is receiving equal attention at different points along the edge--I may be mis-stating this but I remember people reporting that the tip/heel areas get a bit different angle than the rest of the edge? Curious what you or others have seen or experienced in this regard depending on how long you've been using said device?

 

I started off cheap as a proof of concept exercise before getting in too deep. I bought a 1000/3000 combination stone. I made a bridge out of a piece of scrap cedar to fit my kitchen sink. I made it with coarse side up. when it gets wet, it seems to hold the stone pretty well. Been practicing on my old knives. I think I am getting the hang of it. I noticed on some smaller knives that I tended to work the belly a bit too much. I see how some of those old restaurant knives I have seen get misshapen if not careful.

On the Edge Pro clone I have. I can see how the whole edge might not get attention if you are not careful. a longer knife needs to be repositioned several times. The swarf ends up on the platform you rest the knife on, so if you don't want to scratch up the faces, you need to tape them off. Or be very careful (pretty much impossible for me) in your repositioning. I keep checking for the burr and use that as my guide for what part of the blade needs more attention.

 

As above, been there done that have many pounds of rocks in buckets... People get comfortable with different grits and different styles of sharpening. I'm dedicated to free-hand sharpening as the devices are all lacking TO ME. I'll never use one again (tried a couple) and I'm ok with that and don't begrudge those that like devices.

Comes down to "How Sharp is Sharp" and this thread is exactly like the others. Only you can justify your needs and wants in an edge. I used to polish all my kitchen knives to 8k and a few to 25k on Jnats (some still do) but have come to a point that I'm perfectly happy with my general use knives at 3k off a shapton glass stone. My wife and daughter don't want their knives taken past 1200 and that's just fine by me, it their knives.

Whats more important than grit size is proper bevel maintenance. Once that is achieved it's all about how much polish you like on the bevels... Pure and Simple......

 

It's perhaps my poor technique but I can't get fully rid of a carbon burr at 1200, and with a stainless it's even worse. With a 8k I get good results on both, a 5k would suffice with simple carbon, though.

 

I found that some stones I've tried over the years worked better with one type of steel better than the other. King stones and stainless.... /shudder... but oh so nice on carbon

 

As to give an example: I can hardly tell you the difference between a Misono Swedish -- a very finely grained carbon -- after deburring on a 5k Chosera and a 8k Snow-white. So with soft French or Sheffield carbons. For polishing it does make a difference, but for deburring, I'm not sure. But with VG-10, I really do need that higher grit. With AS and blue#2, I get a better result as well.

 

Nightmares of VG-10 thinning jobs.... ave burrs seemed less an issue LOL

 

im in the process of determining if my kitayama is essential or if I'm gonna start stopping at my gesshin 4k

 

One practice we used to use and I'm sure many still do (I know I do). Polishing the secondary bevel as high as possible and going back and put a 3k edge (or what you like in a cutting edge) back on the primary bevel.

Anyone still do that? Not something that is needed very often, only when you thin the back bevel and re-polish for ease of slicing.

 

i use king 1000 and a suehiro rika 5000. i like my results

 

I used to take most of my knives to 5-8k. I have found that the most versatile kitchen edge for me is off my 3k Chocera then stropped to clean it up a little. I rarely take a knife any higher than that anymore.