How to Hold My Knives!!

Alright guys! So...I've gotten a couple of people's feedback on the knives that were at the ECG, and while no one who has spoken to me 'agrees'...I was told that many people felt that the handles on my knives were 'too short'. I have to admit, I was sort of baffled by this. Prior feedback from people using my original wa-handle design...with a more traditional length (130mm or so) handle...was that the handle was MUCH too long!! That was part of the main driving force for the new design handle to begin with. In talking with one of my upcoming customers who was at the ECG though...I think I have figured out why some are thinking that the handles are too short.

It's all in how they hold the knife.

Now...with that being said...most experienced people think 'pinch grip' when talking about how to hold a kitchen knife. I have only recently learned that there's a couple of pretty major variations on how that is accomplished, and I think that's a lot of the reason for confusion on how my knives are used. For some people, like me...the grip starts with your middle finger, locked up against the choil. The rest of your hand falls into place around the knife, and you have your pinch grip established. This works the same regardless of how the choil is designed on ANY knife. I index my grip off the choil. In discussing this with others after the ECG however, I've found out that some people, index their grip off of the ferrule of the knife. They place their grip based on that point, and with a straight choil knife, this places their middle finger in the proper position to lock the knife into a firm, but comfortable pinch grip.

THIS DOES NOT WORK WITH MY KNIVES.

What happens if you do this is, you are gripping the narrow neck, you have no lock on the choil, the knife feels unstable and unwieldy, the handle suddenly feels 'short'...and since they weren't designed to be held like this...overall performance suffers.

I actually made a few videos to illustrate the point. Please ignore my horrible cutting skills (seriously you guys...would you all PLEASE make some videos with my knives!! I make them look like they cut no better than a damn butter knife!!), but I'm hoping to get the point across once and for all about how my knives are designed to be held.

Also, if you could PLEASE share these videos out to others, I would appreciate it. I truly never realized there was such a huge disconnect in how one group instinctively grabs a kitchen knife...versus the other!

 

Yeah geez guys stop being so selfish and think of us still on Cris's list.

Great instructive videos Cris.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

Thanks Alex .

By the way, Ferry told me I sound angry in the videos lol. That couldn't be farther from the truth! It was more my typical wry humor mixed in with real confusion, and some relief that I might have found the solution to the disparity in feeling on the topic. It really baffled me that people thought the handles were too short is all.

Hopefully this clears it up completely .

 

The way a chef holds a knife is entirely personal. There is no correct way. That's part of how they choose a blade; by its comfort in their hand. Here are a couple of guys and how they hold their knives to cut. I'm not sure even a 130mm handle would be enough for them.

 

Different knives different ways to hold them. Seeing the pic above is a perfect example of this. Both chefs are using smaller slicing style knives to slice. Sometimes I place my finger along the spine when in the same scenario. But give chef Daniel a gyuto to work with and you'll see him use a pinch grip:




And then you'll see him switch his grip style at least twice for different tasks during this same video.

 

Here's a link to the above mentioned video:

 

It's actually not the style of knife that dictates how he holds it. It's the cutting motion. When he does a rocker chopping motion, he holds the knife in the pinch grip. However, when he does a Pull slice or chop with the scimiter, he uses the scalpel grip with the index finger on the spine.

I just saw the other stills. Exactly my point. Different grips for different tasks and motions. Therefore different handle lengths for optimum comfort and control.

 

I'm a pinch grip guy, always have been. I honestly can't remember ever holding a chef's knife differently. I'm sure I saw someone holding it that way and just did the same.
Cris's knives really just fall naturally into a pinch grip for me. Even the smaller handled ones. Yes, they do feel a little foreign at first (the smaller handle ones), but once you start cutting and chopping away it just feels natural.
By smaller I'm referring to length. I've yet to see an overly skinny handle come from Cris, and I don't think he'd make it that way unless upon request. Here's way too smart for that. In fact he made my handle a touch thicker and a touch longer based upon my request some time ago. I don't have big paws with thick digits, just a bit longer thin fingers that require a little something more to fill the pinch grip properly (read more comfortably).
During certain tasks with a gyuto I find myself choking up on the blade more than other times. I don't know if others do the same, but I think what can be agreed on is different tasks, different knives, and different preferences all lead us to different grips. And subsequently leads us to different styles of knife handles and blades.

 

I think we're saying the same thing here, for the most part. However I'd maintain that it's not always the cutting motion that dictates the grip. Part of that is the knife, its weight/balance, and what's actually being cut. Heck even the height of the cutting surface lens its own variable here as well.

 

One of the easiest points of contention might be that gyuto and petty are versatile knife concepts, and by constraining the design to a prescribed "correct" grip, you risk putting your knives in a group with various "ergonomic" handles that are widely maligned. It is unlikely that simply telling people they're holding it wrong will satisfy, and will more likely alienate folks.

I am not criticizing the handle, because I happen to like it (I suspect Cris understands why). I do, however, think there is something to be said for conventional designs generally allowing a range of grips without feeling constrained.

I cannot easily justify my own grips with impressive skills; I can only say I think they are comfortable and easy to use for certain things. Because my exploration into the kitchen knife game has focused on <200mm knives, a strong forward pinch is something I don't emphasize except with my Chinese knives, which have no real neck. The emphasis on "stability" does not really factor greatly into how I use knives...particularly when they are sharp and designed to cut effectively. Using mostly thrust cuts and minimal chopping, a relaxed grip feels better to me than a tighter grip, which I may use for chopping herbs.

I like that on my smaller knives, a relaxed, rear grip gives me more working edge length and pushes the balance forward from my hand. Those are the main reasons I went for a slightly longer, heavier knife from Cris (>21cm), knowing the handle and neck encourage a forward pinch grip.

Cris, I think it may be possible to do a few things. First, when doing custom orders, it may be good to establish early in the process whether the buyer wants a pinch-optimized grip, or feels more comfortable with frequent grip changes (e.g. someone who does a lot more meat slicing). I am reasonably sure this will happen more often on short knives and gyutohiki-types than on longer XH gyuto (could also arise on lightweight knives where achieving forward balance is difficult with stabilized woods and metal spacers). How you vary the design to accommodate people is really up to you and your comfort zone, but I posit there is some degree of flexibility in choil angle, neck length, handle length, and handle tapers that would not destroy your distinctive style. You also have shown flexibility in your straighter sujihiki handle concept, and for those folks looking for a long slicer with a longer handle for the adjusted grips, that might be worth recommending.

If you want to add content to your site (last time I checked, it could use some pruning and streamlining for lower-bandwidth and processing demand), as part of a guide to choosing a knife, this can be part of the process. Tall gyuto are optimized for pinch and will use your shorter handle, while slicer and petty types may be more for varied grips (just an example). Invite communication about use when people initiate the order process.

I've heard the "short handle" thing before with other knives, and most of the time it works out fine. If folks are anxious enough about it that they seem unlikely to appreciate it in-hand, it's best to encourage communication about it as early as possible.

 

All excellent points Robert!

I'm waiting for an appointment so I can't go into a lot of depth right now (but will later). I do want to say though, that the main point of my post wasn't to say that any specific grip is wrong (my knives do work quite well in a hammer grip, but you will be utilizing most or all of the handle)...but more that if you are going to use a pinch grip, your middle finger should be against the choil for full effectiveness.

I think Marc can explain better. But basically the knife is usable and efficient in all grips, but really excels with a proper pinch.

 

I've nothing against that claim, but it is a bit different from the impression left from the post and videos. Might have just been that G10 dust making you itch or something.

I think it's not a big deal...and my long-winded post didn't do well at making light of the whole issue. I was reacting more toward the videos and your tone in them.

 

Ahh, gotcha!

By "efficient in all grips", I more meant proper grips for proper tasks. When slicing meat in a hammer grip, my knives work fine. I would not however use this grip to chop vegetables.

 

I would be curious what makes you think it's the motion dictating his grip style here? I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm just curious. In my opinion, it would more be the heel height of the knife. Hard to pinch grip a blade that's going to take off a section of your index finger if your hand moves to get comfortable.

Definitely agree here.

 

Pointy end out.

Sharp side down.

Easy peasy.

 

Just commenting on what is shown in the video. What would make my point (which we don't have here) is him using the chef knife in a pull slicing motion and how he holds a wider blade, but uses it like a narrower slicer. However, a skilled chef wants to slice something, he reaches for the narrower slicer reflexively if it is handy and keeps his fingers positioned away from the cutting edge. If he wants to rocker chop, he reaches for the chef knife reflexively and holds it in a pinch grip if that's his comfort/training.

I know that in my cooking, I hold a gyuto like a racquet handle except for when I want to bear down on something harder like a firm squash, nuts, or thick bar of chocolate when I move my hand forward, put the metacarpophalangeal joint of my index finger on the spine of the blade and hold in a classic pinch grip.

I think that whatever criticism your knives got at the ECG was from folks who just hold the knife differently than you designed/ intended and know it wouldn't work for them.

 

I think my surprise comes from it being the first criticism I've received on the handle design at all, though many people have used it by now. Particularly of the length. The blanks were a little small in thickness (being just a tiny bit under 1")....but they were the full 100-110mm I normally use. Virtually every person I know with a dual taper has been blown away at the general comfort regardless of how they use it (at least this is what I'm being told). That's why most previous comments to people on how to hold my knives, it was just a basic 'put your middle finger against the choil and let the rest happen'. I should have mentioned in the video also, this is a BASE grip...not the ONLY way the knife works...my hands move about my knives in various tasks all the time, without issue. Hammer grip for a suji type slicing of proteins, index finger for a bit more control, full pinch for most other things.

I'd be curious of what Marc and others think about your statement of what a skilled chef does when he wants to do various things. I've heard most (general) chefs use two knives in the kitchen...gyuto/petty (and of course a parer...but that fits in with the next category in my opinion), and only move to specialty knives (including such knives as single purpose slicers) for specialty tasks.

 

I've just (a few days ago) gotten a knife from Cris. It's a 24 cm XH gyuto. I can tell you I like the knife, but I've hardly used it, so I cannot say anything more about it. I will let you know more, however, in some time.

I can say something about the handle. When Cris first sent me some pictures of the knives, one of my first reactions was: "isn't the handle a bit short?". So I completely understand everybody who asks the same question. But then I forgot I even asked the question.

I have now held the knife (I always use a pinch grip) and I can say the handle is very comfortable. That's probably why I forgot I asked the question. In fact I think this is the most comfortable handle I've ever used. The knife is a bit blade-heavy, but that's what I wanted. That's why I ordered a 24 cm XH knife.

The conversation Cris and I had. ontinued and he pointed out this topic to me. To be honest, at first I was surpised it even existed. But in hindsight I recalled my first reaction to Cris' knife.

My experience is that this handle is different from most handles I'm used to (Western and various styles of wa). But in this case different is better, at least in my opinion.

 

Being one of the people who prompted this whole discussion and video recording, I think the key element is that Cris designed his knives to have the user place the middle finger in the somewhat unique rounded and elongated choil. That is the key point that I was missing.
I generally pinch with my thumb and index on either side of the blade in front of the handle, and the other three fingers wrap around the handle. Using this grip on Cris' knives with the standard handle, the butt of the standard was on the lower part of my palm, but not past it, and didn't feel as natural or comfortable. I don't think the middle finger on the typical choil (that is perpendicular or nearly so to the blade) would feel the same at all.
With all that being said, I'm really looking forward to trying this adjusted grip with my upcoming Scorpion Forge gyuto!

 

I've got nothing....