negative feedback

I've been a member of this forum and KKF for quite a while and there's one thing that IMO is pretty common among the members of both forums: negative feedback is being posted pretty rarely.

For example one of the members here had a bad experience with a vendor but opted to keep all the negative feedback from posting it publicly.

Another example: one member has been waiting for his customs knives from several US makers for a lot of time for terrible communication but still prefers to grumble in private instead of revealing it in public.

Yet another example: not that rarely I see some knives that are pretty stupid IMO (concerning their price or geometry or whatever else), but I almost never post my negative thoughts about them.

Actually I have stumbled upon many similar examples when people prefer to keep their negative feedback with them. So I'd like to start a discussion on this topic. One one hand such situation makes forum looks friendlier and happier, but on the other hand it makes us looks a bit like snivelers to registered vendors. For some time, it was even a kind of tradition on KKF to bash CKTG while praising any local vendor no matter what crap they do.

Sometimes I feel that by keeping negative feedback from posting we do more harm to the forum. Yet it's a hard question and I'd like to hear your thoughts. How often do you have to keep yourself from posting negative stuff?

P.S. KKF stands for Kitchen Knives Forum, not this forum.

 

There'a a saying, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it" that I like to follow, especially when it pertains to public forums and other people's livelihoods, whether they are vendors on the forum or not. It's not "sniveling", just courtesy, especially considering that you cannot edit your statements once posted, and that the internet will preserve them forever.

If you feel the need to be negative, either do it through a PM or email, or follow another saying, "Damn with faint praise".

That said, I admit to having several negative opinions and experiences that I keep private.

 

Part of it may be that we (the vendors included) are part of a community, and many have met other forum members face-to-face, talked extensively with them, etc. As a result, you tend to understand these vendors are not anonymous, but real people with families, etc. who sacrafice a lot to make/ sell us products for what often amounts to pennies on thh dollar if you look at the number of manhours they put into their products. It's hard to go out for blood over something when you know it was done by a real person who has the best intentions and is fighting to pay their bills and support their families.

Now if they do not stand behind their product and fix/ replace something they screewed up initially, then sure, other should be warned. But most (if not all) of the makers here will take back the product and try and make things right with you.

And if it's simply that the product took a year to get made and communication during that time was poor, then well, welcome to the world of custom anything. If you order a custom knife you should pretty much assume it will take a year. Don't order one if you need it next month to give as a wedding present; go to Jon, Maxim, Lefty, etc. instead and get a knife that has already been made.

 

Maybe in some areas it considered normal to pluck the terms, but in my job if I promise to deliver the product on time, I'll do it. And when somebody told me that knife will ready on April and then keep silence till August and still not deliver anything even in January – that's not normal to me. So I'm not really trying to say that I'm disappointed by the time it takes to make custom knife. I'm disappointed that several makers have broken their own promises about the terms. Several times.
Now that I'm aware of such situation I probably won't order any more custom knives from US makers, but what about new users who came to the forum? How should they guess that promised "will be ready in 3 months" could take years?

Also, there's a big difference between living in US and on the other half of globe. For example, I've bought from Jon only once because shipping costs are ridiculous. CKTG has no problems shipping stuff to my address using USPS and it's more or less reasonable, but Jon's for some reasons doesn't trust international orders to USPS and courier delivery price could be double or triple of the price of the item itself. So what is cool for US customers might not be so cool for the others. Maxim used to ship stuff using UPS courier delivery. Sounds cool, right? Well, not really if you are in Russia, because I'll have to make customs clearance by yourself (I've spent half of my work day in the customs filling stupid papers and trying to persuade officer that JNAT isn't something special that needs to be declared). Once I bought a 200$ knife from Canada and untrackable shipping cost me 70$. How cool is that? Now imagine you aren't happy with that knife and want to ship it back – you'll have to pay another 30-40$, so you'll effectively lost half of the knife costs only on shipping. The shipping thing makes me think twice before ordering anything from North America, because in fact it almost always means it wouldn't make any sense to return the product.

But enough of that shipping drama I guess most members here won't have similar problems ever.

Let me speak on another topic that is related directly to me: the handles I've done so far. Not sure how many, but I guess over the last year I've made and gifted somewhere around 40-50 handles give or take. Now guess how many times had I received any feedback? In the best case scenario, I would see a picture of the knife with my handle, but in 90% of time there would be silence. Which makes me think there are some issues but because (as Rick mentioned) "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it", I don't get any feedback. But in order to improve I need feedback. In fact I need negative feedback, because only negative feedback would allow me to improve. I keep hearing from my friends and relatives about nice look of my handles, but that's a completely useless feedback, because it doesn't help me in any way.

I guess my main point is that negative feedback isn't something bad. It's just another form of feedback. If we are lacking this form of feedback on forums, we are harming ourselves. At least that's how I feel it. And I'm talking about constructive feedback here. For example, if some maker post few shots of his new creation and your think "meh" — keep it from posting. But if you've used that very knife and can point out areas where it's lacking — then you'd better post it instead of quietly sitting and crying in the corner.

 

I think it all lies with how you deliver the feedback. Constructive criticism is good IMO.

If you are insulting and abusive with your feedback then it does more harm than good.

 

I don't even want to talk about insulting, as it's clearly not what we need here.

But here's an example: let's say you just bought two knives, Itinomonn and Ginga (feel free to substitute any other brands here). You tested them for a week and you fall in love with one of them while the other one is just "meh". So you could keep all the feedback. You could post a good feedback about the one knife that you liked. You could post about both knives, or you could post only the about the "meh" knife. I feel like most members here would either keep feedback in private or would just post about the "good" knife. I could be wrong though, but I haven't seen much criticism about any knives…

 

Anton, I have always found you to choose your words wisely. I also agree it's better to under promise and over deliver in general. I can accept delays if I am kept informed. I too have had frustrating experiences inside and outside this forum. Is there something wrong with holding people a little accountable? I appreciate how tough it is for vendors, but as buyers, we should look out for each other, both good and bad experiences. Btw, tell the Mrs. you should have kept the little knife you rehandled. Still a winner.

 

I disagree. There is absolutely no reason why a knife should be months/years late, that's a result of poor business management. The fact that individuals are saying it's "OK" and "this is just how it is" allows custom makers to get away with such nonsense (not attacking you, I've just read this too many times). Just because that's the norm with some makers doesn't mean that it's the norm with all makers.

 

I am going to delicately dip my toe here since after all this kind of discussion is what gets you banned in other forums. I think Anton has some very very valid points. Open criticism is the norm on motorcycle and truck forums I frequent. If someone had some issues with a set mufflers, I want to know, good or bad. That includes the vendors and suppliers. I think on the other boards the discussions are heavily, but fairly, very fairly moderated. Personal attacks are not tolerated nor are any false rumors. From that a culture developed that pretty much everyone sticks to. What I see on the knife forums is the opposite. Over time a culture developed where personal attacks were fair game, false accusations were fair game and so people being sick of it, decided to keep their mouths shut. Or, establish the status quo which is what Ian is talking about.

I myself am waiting two years now on a custom. I'm not happy about it. And I've kept my mouth shut because once burned twice shy. So you can see Anton how this develops. More transparency and openness would be good for the community but I don't think the culture will allow it. And culture is a very hard thing to change.

 

Too many torches and pitchforks, too much kool-aid, and too many hostages. Too many metaphors, too.

 

HAH!

ump


(we definitely need a better selection of emoticons!)

 

I have given critical feedback to makers. They take it very well and are often very happy to have any feedback at all. I don't feel that it is appropriate to publicly criticize a maker who has every opportunity to make the very next knife different. I have already seen multiple examples of makers taking feedback and incorporating it into their subsequent knives. There is no need to call permanent public attention to a mistake that has been made that is not being repeated.

If you have opinions about a particular makers work ask somebody who owns one or that has owned several via PM. The members here and at the other forum are generally very happy to discuss pieces from their collections honestly. And before paying money in advance for a promise of a knife someday you should absolutely ask around.

 

I won't make any comment on waiting times, Im usually running behind on commissions and thats not a situation I am happy about, its something I am making certain to avoid next year.

On feedback, its essential, quite frankly, to new and experienced makers alike. Some makers, (myself included) seek out feedback actively as there is a trend not to express honest critique and comparison and for understandable reasons. But from a maker point of view you can learn a whole lot when someone actually does not like something you do and is willing to explain in great detail why ...its sometimes a hard pill to swallow but in the long run invaluable for true development and improvement. I remember when KKF first started, pass arounds were a brutal afair with everything expressed in public, I learnt allot from this style and deliberately targeted the most outspoken individuals for my evaluation, a sort of trail by fire.....but when you start you have everything to gain...... the trend of everything done via pm etc etc, leaves everyone in the dark and likewise with good honest reviews and videos! would love to see my knives being used by other people in videos! So in short I would like to see some more openness comparisons, views and opinions, with out peoples views and opinions life gets pretty boring and makers can get complacent, stuck in their ways or never properly develop their work to actually perform in the first place.

 

Respectfully disagree for a very simple reason: mistakes are VERY important and must be retained and protocolled. Otherwise, there will be others who will make the same mistakes again and again. Negative feedback purpose isn't not to bash makers, it's about helping other members of this community to understand the real difference between a good knife and mediocre knife.
I'm happy to see Ian participating here. If you followed his works from the very beginning of his appearance on KKF you can easily see the progress he has done. Now imagine a new maker comes here seeking for knowledge. Your approach would force him to make all those mistakes that Ian has done in the past. I can understand why people don't want to ruffle any feathers but in the long run, that doesn't make knife community more valuable. At least that's how I see it.

Also from a user perspective it would be super cool to see all the history of makers progress. With brief explanations of what and why has been changed.

Well, the thing is… there is more than one US custom maker who successfully dodge all PMs and emails for months. Mind you it happened not just with me.

And the whole idea of keeping critique in PM doesn't appeal to me much. I can talk to people in person and exchange emails if I wanted to 1 to 1 communication, but to me the whole idea of community is to share knowledge and experience. The idea of hiding any negative experience undermines the whole idea of community for me. It's like having a family where nobody talks about problems except with their own psychotherapist.

 

I honestly think you are trying to make an absolute that should be protocol in all instances... If I commission a custom, and I have an issue or two with it when it arrives, why should I hit the forums and unveil the issues there? A custom is a custom -- we're not talking 'stock' knives here, are we? Some makers allow you to pick edge geometry, grind, spine thickness, etc. If I have an issue with something I have fully customized not being right shouldn't I take that up with the maker? How does laying out a workmanship issue/ error help other new makers?

 

I am notorious for taking forever to finish something which makes me unhappy to the point that I am thinking about closing my shop. So, criticism may be justified but it won't help me because I already know about it. Feedback about the products themselves would be very helpful, I would be happy to improve things where I can. But I also see that open criticism can easily affect the livelihood of small makers who work for minimum wage already when making knives, so one should show some responsibility about how criticism is given... Keep in mind that many, if not most, of the makers here are not doing this full time, and often life just happens and the best plans and time lines get screwed up. Very often it is also difficult to differentiate between 'mistakes' of the makers and 'personal preference' of the reviewers. Similarly, there are decisions of the makers you may just have to live with - like only choosing a certain mail carrier. That is often based on experience, and I don't see that it is justified criticizing the maker for this.

Overall, I guess I am all for a fair evaluation of the products and experiences, but it is a very fine line between attacking a person and criticizing a product. In cases when I am not sure what is what, I prefer to stay quiet myself.

Stefan

 

You raised a very good topic: if custom knife is "meh" — who to blame, the customer or the maker? Obviously there's no easy answer to this.
In both ways I feel that open discussion of such issues could help new users to stay away from repeating the same mistakes again. Once I ordered a custom knife with an profile that I thought would be great. Well, it turned out that profile sucks in real life for several reasons, but neither you nor other members ever heard about it, because I kept from discussing that "issue". Do you think community wins from my silence?

It depends on the particular error I guess. Might be of no help at all. We don't have any open discussions between makers about their methods of work, so it's hard to say. I browsed some blacksmiths forums and found a lot of interesting topics about heat treatment. About all sorts of jigs and clever solutions for different types of grind. And here we don't even happen to discuss grinds openly (well, maybe except for some old Marko's threads).

I love the WIP on WA handles making that Cris Anderson has done because he pointed out a lot of errors that he has done. That helped me to avoid them in my work. So his negative experience appeared very valuable to me. I believe that almost any negative feedback if used thoughtfully, can be valuable to the community. I might exaggerate things a bit, but the general idea still stands.

 

I can forgive a reasonable delay if I'm kept informed. If something's promised in 6 months and takes 2 years, that's getting a little excessive. The biggest issue regarding schedule is being kept in the dark--that really yanks my tail. That said, when I've actually commissioned and put down money on a knife, the makers have done very well about meeting schedule and keeping me up to date. On knives where my name is supposedly on a list and no money has changed hands, things are more likely to drag on...and on...and on.

Mistakes are going to happen, but I'd agree it's better to take them up with the maker first. If they aren't helpful, then some negative feedback might be appropriate. Or if they make things right, that would also be appropriate to mention--it's good to know a maker stands behind his/her work. Don't know if it would be worthwhile to have a rating system on knife makers like there is on ebay sales...rate on a scale of 1-5 for F&F, communication, performance, etc. It might be too easy to corrupt a rating system.

There have been some little things that have been irritations with some custom knives. For example, one knife came with a chipped edge. I could have sent it back to the maker and I'm sure he would have taken care of it, but it was easy enough to sharpen out on my own. Does he deserve a negative review for that? I don't think so. One knife had (IMO) a wedging problem. I could have contacted the maker and had him thin it (I know other people have done so) but did it myself, and now I'm really happy with the knife. Also not deserving a negative review. In both cases, it would have been unfair to leave a negative review because the maker was never given a chance to fix things.

On the other side of things, I sent a maker an email within the last day just to let him know how happy I was with my knife after a couple months of use. My phone rang this morning--yep, it was the knife maker getting back to me in person. He mentioned that he gets very little feedback on his knives, so it's difficult to know what makes people happy. So if you have issues or compliments about your knives, let the knife maker know!

 

great post, Lucretia.

On a separate but related note, what about letting the vendors post about the customers? That way the other vendors would be made aware of who there might be problems dealing with, so they do not have a similar experience? Something to consider.

 

That's not to say that I won't hold a grudge. Send me a chipped knife, and I'll make a note in my little black book that you let it leave your shop like that. But it's not something to complain about on a public forum.