Knife budget

Lucretia,
It is not an art at all.
Reason? Most of the producers make a kitchen knives with a purpose, a mission, the mission is to cut things. Lets say you are in the kitchen and are trying to cut something. You need a tool, not an artform.

You feeling me? Its like the art in general is something you might or might not have thoughts about.
Tool is something you need only to do the job. How its doing is the question, not how it looks while doing it.

he he

 

That doesn't explain why something cannot be both a tool and an art form. Your logic makes it seem as if things must be either one or the other. By your logic pens by Montbalnc cannot be art, they are only tools for writing. Nor can a watch be art, it was made as a tool to only tell time. However, look up watches by Patek Philippe, De Bethune, Harry Winston etc. and you will clearly see that is not the case.

Art is completely subjective. Furthermore, there is such a thing as functional art... You might not think of it as art, however, many would. I also think some of the makers on here would absolutely describe themselves as artists. If they are artists are their products not art? You say producers of kitchen knives make them for one purpose, I would counter that by saying the purpose of knives by great makers is to showcase their level of skill and dedication to their craft, to push their creativity to the limits of their ability and to show mastery over their work. If Bill Burke's mission was to make something that only cuts, why go to the trouble of forging at all? Simply punch a blank out of a pre-made sheet of steel and be done with it. Why put on a beautiful handle? Attach a plastic one and move on (it'll probably last longer after all). My point is many people can make okay knives (even machines can make knives now and you don't even need a person), however, in my opinion it is the passion and artistry that a maker brings to the table that elevate their knives from just okay to being great, from being simple tools to becoming functional art. It is this artistry that we pay for.

If things were only made to serve a purpose it would be a very dull world. Where would be the beauty in that?

-Steve

 

It would be a very dull world indeed.

Now, as to calling say a Burke or other knives art, I'm not so sure.
Good craftmaship seems a much better term for a quality hand made product utilizing advanced techniques and materials.
As I am from a part of Europe where crafts are highly regarded and the terms mester (master) and Journeyman comes with years and years of formal training, both theoretical and practical, I guess my views differ some what from the mainstream thinking in the US.

A couple years out in the shed seems to be all it takes to become a highly respected "artist" over there
Nothing wrong with that, but my upbringing seems to have made me value proper training and examination in all aspects of a trade like the one we are discussing here.

That said, some of the work we all see on here, most definitely has an artistic approach to it.
But to me, good craftmanship is the better concept.
To master the skill of making something that performs at the top level using high quality materials is all I could ever want from a knife-maker..

 

What's the difference between an artist/artisan and a craftsperson? It's not black and white. At the end of the day could both of their wares not be considered art? I would consider a beautiful piece of furniture art. It's not fine art in terms of legendary paintings or sculpture, however, I still appreciate it enough to be art. To see the self-expression in their work.

In my personal view knife making is a form of artistic expression. That's how I view it. Besides artistic expression, I don't know what else I would call it. To me that makes it art. The love and care that goes into forging steel, folding it, shaping it, bending it to your will. To me that's art. Creating something beautiful out of nothing. To me that's art. You can tell the care that goes into something that a great maker produces, and to me that's what makes it art. They put their time and energy into creating something, they put a piece of themselves into it. I appreciate the beauty in things around me, and maybe that's why I view it as art, who knows. That's why art is so subjective.

The nice thing about everyone being such an individual person is we all have personal views. It makes the world more interesting

- Steve

 

They're tools that can also seen as art. You want to know if a knife is a piece of art, or purely utilitarian, or something in between? Just ask the maker.

 

Hah, as with watches, there indeed are people that think they are better or are made feel better with a certain "artistic"... nevertheless... watch.
Its all there is to it.

Functional art? You mean like the japanese warmed toilet seat?

You are trying to say that the really highly performing kitchen knives were ever made of a flat piece of steel? By who? When?
Grasp the idea.
The man inventing a tool for cutting was sitting by the fire for, lets say, 20 years to get to how to make the cutting effective. After some generations we have some OK performing objects, then some funky artist comes [like many now] into the equation and says he can make artistic beautiful piece that will be just as useful.

And then...We see flat grind hahahha
So please, bring brand names there there is excitement about them.

Cause if the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, why most here comment on the mainstream qualities - damasteel, fancy handles, materials, you choose, and not as to the real beauty of funcionality??

Peoples mouth is full of wise words about the materials used, but where is the performance, the performance is not in the price, only thing Im sure about

 

It is not black or white at all, I agree.
There's definitely areas where the lines comes close to each other or even crosses.

To me though, the difference is in uniqueness.
Furthermore it is to instill some kind of reaction other than just the normal ooh's and aaah's that we seem to bestow on any new and shiny gyoto shown on these pages.
A Burke this or that compared to most other makers we see on here is basically the same thing(I'm not targeting Burke at all, his name was simply used earlier in the post. That's all)
Sure, there are differences, but to me, not enough to really brand any of them truly unique and one of a kind.
Nor do they tell me anything, instill new thoughts, provoke or delight on more than the obvious level.

In honesty, most makers selects between a few steels, gets them from even fewer suppliers, many of them send them out to a select few who does their HT.
At this stage we are already a long ways from anything resembling uniqueness, or IMHO art.
Some has a better aesthetic sense than the others, some even put a minor twist to profile or whatever in their knife.
But no, art it is not.

That is indeed true, and what would this and other arenas like it be without differing views?

 

I haven't said my knives are "better". Arguing art vs craft is semantics. My knives perform well, and I find them beautiful and enjoy them for that as well as their cutting ability. There's nothing wrong with that. I doubt I would find a warmed toilet seat beautiful, although it might be desirable in cold weather. There's also nothing wrong with buying a knife strictly for performance. Do what's right for you and within your budget.

Salient characteristics for the "best" knife are highly subjective. The important thing is that the food tastes good.

 

I used to work in a lab where we had a set of non-sparking wrenches. The "performance" part was they could help keep you from dying a painful flaming death. But the alloy they were made of made them lovely to look at, and they were always fun to use because they were pretty.

Enjoy beauty/art/craft wherever you can find it.

 

I like this

The thing is nobody here has said a knife that was more expensive was better (at least I haven't). I don't know where you're getting that from. I never once said that just because something cost more that it's better. I've never said that damascus makes something better nor that "fancy handles" make them better. I was simply commenting on your 'insight' that a knife "is not art at all". I don't know if you're taking these posts as personal attacks or not, but they're not (just for clarification). There's no need to become defensive. It's just a discussion among knife nuts

Another perfect example of functional art is a vase. They can be art, but they are also a vase. I don't know why something can't be both functional and artistic. That's all I'm saying. Like I said, art is subjective. So to you they aren't art. To others they are. It's as simple as that. There's no need to put down anyone though.

The work of certain makers commands a certain price. Some people are willing to pay that price, others are not. Nothing makes them better or worse. If I'm reading your posts right, I think you feel that for something to be more expensive it should preform better than something cheaper. Is that right?

Very well said. We all have different likes and dislikes and there's nothing wrong with that.

- Steve

 

We talk about things like damascus and handle material because they're visual. It's easy to see. Whereas something like performance, that's harder to qualify. You can talk about edge retention, grind, ht, easy of sharpen ability, etc. However, those are things that are more of a personal feel. And you can't see personal feel. Person A can say something has good edge retention, but unless person B gets a chance to try it out themselves it's hard for them to understand. Performance is hard to convey. That's why there are pass-arounds, that's why we like to try out new makers, etc. Aesthetics don't make knives better. They're just personal preference.

To me they're artistic but to you they aren't. That's okay. At the end of the day though didn't you pick up a Shig kitaeji gyuto when the kasumi would have done the same job? There's something to be said for aesthetics.

- Steve

 

Yes I surely did.
And yes, there are things to be said about aesthetics, I will never argue that.
And as beautiful as that Kitaeji is (to me), and furthermore how wonderfully it performs, I see a well crafted, beautiful and functional knife only.
Nothing artsy or artistic.
Heck, I have more than 50 custom straight razors, all beautiful and well crafted.
So my apologies if I have given the impression that I somehow distaste beauty.
I'm in all honesty a sucker for it!
Not on behalf of functionality, mind you.
Functionality always trumps beauty in my book.
But if one can have both, why not?

The truth of the matter is, I have several Shigefusa's by now, and do appreciate their functionality, steel, grinds, looks and history.
As I am in a position where I can pretty much get whatever my heart desires, why shouldn't I?

There is however not a = between art and beauty.
Quite the contrary, beauty is superficial, art, or at least good art, is way above and beyond that.

 

Ok so we are essentially arguing about the definition of art?

 

I didn't realize you were arguing anything at all

But no, we are not.
At least, I am not.
What I'm trying to convey is that a polished turd still smells of ****.
It's no more than a couple months I made that discovery yet again as I succumbed to buying a "shiny new tool" based on looks rather than reputation and functionality.
That pretty turd is smelling up my cabinet, and will see no more use.
Simply because it is useless as the tool it was camouflaged as.

What all this comes down to is that this thing is not well crafted.
And to me, you don't cut bologny with art, you do that with a well crafted tool.
Regardless of how it is made out to look.

 

I don't think anyone's arguing either

Different strokes for different folks. That's what makes choices and the world so great.

- Steve

 

Sorry I meant discussing or more likely debating. Does a well crafted object constitute art.

 

I think of art as portraying and provoking specific emotions or reflections of human experience. I have never seen or handled a knife that has made me feel sad or anxious or rapture. No plate of food has ever caused these reactions in me either. They are crafts. What confuses the issue is the overwhelming amount of really bad art in the world.

 

If not art, maybe beauty. I know what I like. If a knife does not appeal to me in the aesthetic, it won't get beyond that. When that form follows function it is synergistic. It is ok to not get it or think it is rubbish. But clearly there are those amongst us, myself included who think knives can certainly be art. It seems so obvious to me I find it hard to argue.

 

First rule of the kitchen: never get personal, so dont you worry about me

Dude, read this quota one more time, I know youve written that, but just read it. Performance being subjective? [To some extent yes, like for example the edge retention OK], but either the knife does cut stuffs well or its not. 0 and 1 situation, its working or its not, or would you say about a certain knife that its cutting about 60 % of the carrot well, and the rest disastrous?? That is a good knife then?
You make it sound like its art haha, sounds also like an excuse for some makers to say yeah well maybe this knife aint so good a performer but it sure looks awesome!
Guess in that case, yeah its art.
Is that functional art then? Poorly.

Regarding price, its not you, but please check what gets people excited here, theres one thread with many pictures.
You wanna suggest most folks buy cheap?

 

If a knife fails to perform its task for me, no matter how much artistry went into it- then it is a failure. I have seen tons of knives at shows that show off the ego and ability of the maker while actually impeding the core mission of the tool itself.