negative feedback

You made some good points Anton. But....a lot of times with negative feedback it can be made at a moment when you are upset or haven't had the time to think things through. With not having the ability to edit a comment that get's posted, it is there forever. Even if you post a retraction later the initial comment is still there and people are not always going to put the two together. There have been times that I misunderstood or misinterpreted something and looking back am glad that I kept my mouth shut.

On the issue of past due knives my advice to the knife makers is to get them made and sent before taking on new projects. Especially the knives that are already paid for. You will feel better about yourself and sleep a lot better.

On the issue of thank you's for gifts. My experience is that about 10% will say thank you. Leaves me thinking that the other 90% did not like or appreciate what I gave them. The 10% that say thank you usually become friends or people that I think of fondly and respect.

 

If you regularly give gifts of the caliber of those I've seen Mark...anyone who doesn't at minimum say thank you is an ingrate of the highest order lol.

Just saying my friend!

 

I have delayed weighing in on this thread- but it seems to have struck a chord in the community.

As KKFora policy - any constructive feedback is welcome to be posted here. This is not to mean that ax grinding would be permitted or a relentless hacking at an issue would be allowed. I would encourage all reviews to be factual and pointed and consequently, constructive. The custom nature of the products do make it more difficult to write anything that can be used for anything but a general guideline of the makers performance.

I have thought long and hard about starting a "best practice thread" that would allow our makers and members to create a working philosophy of sorts on how this niche industry could operate more openly and within a framework... perhaps brand it and use it as a marketing tool for the makers?

One example is: I personally do not feel that any maker should collect more than 10 percent deposit on a knife order. The date of completion should be agreed to when the order is taken. Additional payments can be requested as the actual knife is in production etc. This is just an example- the brain trust who are actually doing this may have a better suggestion/s.

 

I think publicly posting constructive comments. both positive and negative, are in the long term best interests of both vendors and prospective buyers. Indeed, I think negative comments may be even more useful than positive ones. Just like James mentioned, when I shop for almost anything I usually pay most careful attention to any negative comments -- and try to evaluate them fairly (e.g., trying to determine how much is subjective content and how much objective).

But of course comments, to be fair and constructive, must be based on stated facts. Obviously, one's affection or disaffection for a product is necessarily subjective in some respects. That certainly shouldn't mean subjective comments should be withheld. And often it is absolutely apparent to what extent comments are subjective, e.g., observations about a knife's profile or weight.

It's one thing for a knife to be damaged in transit; another thing altogether for it to be sent with a chipped edge (if it is clear that was the case). I see no excuse for that, and to me it speaks directly to a maker's product quality, pride and professionalism.

Vendors are professionals, in part because they represent themselves to be makers/sellers of certain goods -- and should be considered professionals with respect to those items even if they have another part-time or even full-time trade. (Two weeks ago I visited a knife maker whose "real" full time occupation is farming; I understand that planting, harvesting, etc. necessarily takes priority over making knives, and his wait times reflect that.) So being professional (or simply fair and ethical) means, for example, that they should take pride in what they sell and the way they conduct business. Clearly they shouldn't do things like lead customers to expect delivery within a certain time frame and then regularly miss the mark significantly. Can serious disruptions arise in their lives that dramatically affect their ability to deliver? Of course. But that's where communications with -- and respect for -- their customers should come into play. I would have no problem with a knife maker who originally told me that a knife I ordered should be ready 6 months later, and then tells me, for example, in a timely fashion, that a workshop fire or relocation to another home, will delay delivery by 3 months or more, or a freakishly cold and snowy winter will result in a 2 month delay. But letting a promised or at least strongly implied delivery date seriously slide, without any communication, is unprofessional in my opinion. And something other prospective purchasers have a right to know about. Underpromise and overdeliver. I don't want the craft equivalent of vaporware.

And there should be nothing to prevent a vendor from giving his or her side of the story in an equally public manner -- though much of the need to do so, in the case of problems such as delayed delivery, should have been obviated by proactive private communications to the buyer.

 

Larry's comments brought something to mind from another forum.
There was a case where someone commented negatively on a custom knife they purchased.
Then when the knifemaker responded to the concerns of the knife owner they were banned because they were not a vendor on the forum.
While it would have been best handled between the owner and the maker, the owner went public so the maker needed to respond in kind.
Turns out that some knives just aren't very good at cutting through frozen chicken bones.

 

Mark, based on the facts you summarized, I think the other forum's decision to ban the vendor for responding in like kind (i.e., publicly, to a public posting by the buyer) to a criticism of his product was pretty stupid (and unfair). And if the purchaser really used the knife to cut frozen kitchen bones -- presumably a patently inappropriate use of whatever knife it was -- and that fact was disclosed by the buyer in the posted criticism, wouldn't it have been apparent to others that the criticism was partially or wholly unwarranted, so that a reply by the vendor might have been unnecessary? If I complain in a public posting that ABC is a lousy knife maker because my ABC custom knife tip was bent when I used it to pry open a can, I don't think Mr. ABC needs to reply.

 

Frankly this whole business is a bit of a mess, so let's enjoy an island of sanity for a little while without patting ourselves on the back too much.

 

really good reason i hardly ever take orders my timelines get all messed up all the time. i have said it before its best to catch me in the middle of cutting a sheet up. good news for some is the steel for razors and single bevels will be here soon

 

+1

 

Yes, it's easier to destroy than to build. I know we all have stories of bad things on the Internet. Let's make an effort to let it go, and rejoice in what we have here.

On the topic of deposits....

I believe no money should exchange hands till product is delivered.
I've made knives for people that were Damascus with mammoth ivory, quite the cost for a maker, without a deposit.
Some would say to have the customer pay at least enough to cover that. I disagree. Stuff happens in life. And whether it's a $100 edc or a $2000 highend piece, if you can't deliver when promised, the customer still is unhappy.
Does that make it easier for the customer to change his mind, and leave the maker hanging? Yes it does. And it's happened to me, and I'd be willing to bet every maker on this forum.

To a maker, your name is everything. When you drop the ball, everyone knows and your name takes a hit.
If the buyer drops the ball, the only one who cares is the maker. ..no one else.
But at least we still have the knife and our good name is intact.

 

I think this is a great point of view for this conversation regarding deposits and time lines and will ask for how long could you really be stuck holding a finished piece? The makers on our fora are sought after and I would think could sell an unclaimed piece rather quickly? Please correct me if not the case.

 

That likely depends on the level of customization. A knife Randy made for me to give to my wife would have a limited market due to the handle color, etc. Son has a Pierre custom he is having trouble selling right now; definitely a knife with a limited audience, even though it's a beautiful/ striking knife. If you are paying $2k for a custom, you generally want it to be what YOU want, not what the guy who backed out on the purchase wanted.

 

I understand this completely. Most of my business is orders, and my timeline is seriously all over the place. The guys who are buying 'stock' or 'shelf' knives get them much more quickly than customs...not because the customs order guys are less important to me, but because the those guys are getting something very specific that they are looking for. Most of the time, the 'stock' knives are knives that were hardened for one of the custom order guys, but that they just didn't quite 'feel'. They are still quite beautiful, just not that guy's cup of tea. Warren's knife for example was one of those...and many people have told me it's their favorite of all of my knives. The fact is, I simply can't afford to spend a couple days hardening a knife (it rarely works the first time, and if it goes over three times, I have to redo the thermal cycle...which is about 6hrs work total), and then have that knife go unsold or have to repeat the process because the custom guy didn't want it. Once ie has a viable hamon, it HAS to be finished and sold for me to afford to live lol.

As soon as that happens, there goes that customer's time line, and EVERY guys's time line behind it. Multiply this by however many custom orders this circumstance happens with, and you can see why any time commitment I give is at best a very slightly educated guess.

I understand this thought process...and if I won the lottery I'd be making knives and auctioning/selling them off for charity instead of taking deposits and selling them to make a living. The simple fact is I plain old can't afford to carry the costs involved in making one of my knives for the duration of the process...both in materials and labor. A block of wood for a handle is usually $50 minimum...some blocks are over $100 (search Craig Steven's auctions on eBay lol). Other handle materials just add to that. I spend probably $50 easy on just belts for a knife as well. Labor can be measured in weeks for one knife. I simply don't have a big enough cushion in the bank to go that long without income.

You have to understand, some makers are simply in a different place financially than others...whether because they have a spouse that works, or are established well enough to be more stable. To say that no money should change hands and that the maker should carry the burden of all costs, to me...is a bit unfair in a couple of ways. More on that below.

Absolutely this. I'm currently making a suji for a customer. He supplied the mammoth tooth (the price tag on it says $1300...no clue if that's in USD...but the stuff ain't cheap), bog oak ($100 block), and the ray skin for the saya ($200). I'm supplying the oosic. The fact of the matter is, if a customer approached me looking for a knife like this, but I was expected to carry the costs...I'd have to turn down the order. Either that, or not feed my kids for a week or two. Beyond that is that if 'life happened' to that customer...causing him to back out, and I carried all the costs...I'd now be trying to sell a big $$$ suji that could appeal to others...but could just as easily not. I very plainly can't afford to sit on something like that right now.

Now...I want to say...in a perfect world, I'd be happy to carry all the costs. Even now I don't take my deposit until the knife is hardened...because that is the biggest hurdle, and I know that I could spend four months grinding the knife on a sidewalk if necessary to get it finished if the worst happened. I also can, and more often than you might think, have...sat on knives I've made for months to give the customer time to pay them off. I don't expect to give a customer a variable time line, then contact them one day and say 'Hey!...your knife is done. Please have the paypal balance in my account by midnight or the knife's being sold off' lol. I held a recent petty I sold for almost six months after completion for the customer. He was a young kid, and the knife was a thank you gift for his parents. He gave me what amounted to $100/month for it and I was glad to do it for him. I wouldn't hesitate to hold any knife I made for a customer for that long, provided they kept in reasonable contact.

Conversely, I have another customer who wants a four knife set, with matching hamon (which is innately a random process). He's been waiting quite a while for his knives...much longer than either of us anticipated. We knew there would be some time involved from the get go...but thankfully he understands what I said above about a knife that is hardened having to be finished and sold. I am grateful for his patience, as I hope my customers who are making payments are grateful for mine.

Understand...you guys are EVERYTHING to me as customers and supporters. If I could give the things away I would! But in the end I simply can't...and if I had to carry the costs involved, I'd be working somewhere else and making three knives a year like I used to.

 

What you said Cris is more than fair and understandable.
For me it's much easier to do it my way as I have a full time job and don't have to sweat a missed sale or order.

I meant no slight to you or any other maker by my statements.

We all have different financial situations and needs and that again is one of the things that drive us down different paths and different ways of conducting our business.

Also I should mention, I almost NEVER accept custom orders for the same reasons I don't take deposits. Things change to quick when you're a spare or part time maker.

I have nothing but respect for you all. And if my statement offended or made you feel negative in any way, I truly apologize.

 

No offense, hard feelings, or negativity perceived my friend! I took your post as you intended it...as your opinion based on your experiences! All good things, whether they align with mine or not .

 

This thread has given me a great deal more insight into a lot of issues knife makers face. Thank you very much everyone who participated. As a customer I try to be as understanding as possible. The only thing I absolutely can't stand is bad communication / no communication at all.
This has turned me off dealing with some makers. I can understand waiting between 2-5 days for an email, any more without a reason is kinda pushing it.
Thank you to all the makers who take communication with customers seriously

 

Cris. I completely understand not all situations are the same and it is not always possible for a maker to carry costs. I should have considered that in my previos post. I think what set you apart from some others is your statement that deposit are required at a certain point in the making of the knife. It would make me feel better knowing I have paid a deposit on something that has at least started being worked on. Not a deposit to be on a list. At the end of the day if it works for you and your clients are happy it's a win. A good insight as Geo stated.

 

Thanks guys . I didn't take any comments negatively at all, just so you are aware. I just felt that some things were being overlooked is all, lol.

I learned early in my knifemaking career that taking full deposits right from the start is a BAD idea. Life happens on BOTH ends of the transaction, not just the customer's...and it can leave a maker (and has left me) in a very bad position with a customer. Or in my case...customers. I had a run of EDC orders waaaay back (the first ones I made, as a matter of fact), and thought everything was nice and stable in my life. I didn't ask for money, but people wanted to give it to me and I thought 'Well, it'll help with up front costs, so why not??'. I collected small deposits on four knives total. For various reasons I wasn't able to complete the orders for far, far too long. They were completed, but not in a time frame that was even close to acceptable. Not fun, and for a guy like me who carries a pretty substantial sense of personal accountability/responsibility...more than a little disheartening to put it lightly. I still feel horrible about that situation, but I still keep it in mind so I can avoid being in that position ever again. That's why I only collect once the blade is hardened. Worst case I am fully able to grind them on a 3x21 Harbor Freight hand held belt sander lol. That's how @Wagner the Wehrwolf's gyuto was ground, and @ChuckTheButcher's suji...along with every knife I made before those. Hardening is the real hurdle that requires specialized equipment etc, and once that's done, it's just a matter of time to complete the knife. As I said before lol...they could be ground on a sidewalk with enough time.

Anyhow though, I think the main purpose of the thread has been lost a bit . To put things back on topic...I recently received a message from a customer regarding a rather major issue with his knife. It's completely fixable, and while it shouldn't have happened at all, the reason it did is understandable (part of the design actually...and maybe even slightly climate related). He's sending the knife back to be set straight, and I feel will be very happy with the service he receives for giving me the opportunity to correct the problem without drama blasted across the boards. I told him to PLEASE post his full experience when everything is resolved, not an edited review leaving out any problems. The reason for this is that...being as how these knives are fully hand made, there WILL be issues that arise from time to time. A review shouldn't always just be about the knife itself (though that's the most important part), but should also be about your overall experience with the maker and his willingness and ability to back his product. Basically because we live in an imperfect world, and despite any and all of our efforts to put out a perfect product every single time, the likelihood of that happening is slim.